The concept of Tenderloin, TenderNob, Civic Center and all the rest get bashed about quite a bit. So I say, why not call our own shots and put it to a vote below based on delicious, delicious color-coded maps.
Map #1: Basically in this, you see the majority of Downtown and the actual city center as being hell. I’ve even tossed in a chunk of 6th street just to have a gigantic swath to define as a no-go zone.
Map #2: Sure, the Loin is large, but maybe not as large as #1. Plus, there’s this spot called Civic Center and that’s maybe all right most of the time, because hey, it’s not Loin.
Map #3: Maybe Civic Center actually spreads a bit more up and let’s actually say that the TenderNob exists in a finite space.
Map #4: While we’re admitting to the TenderNob, maybe we should also admit to the fact that the Academy of Art has basically bought up a huge chunk of it and runs their Princess Limos along Sutter, causing massive congestion plus creating a student ghetto.
This is obviously no means definitive and if people want to chime in, in the comments, go for it. It will be interesting to see if people go for Hyper Scary (#1), Hyper Local (#4) or something in between.
32 Comments until now
I voted for map 2, but, would totally throw my support to map 1 if we could actually get people to start calling it the Megaloin!
i lived on Taylor between Turk and Eddy, next to Original Joe’s. although i voted for map #4, i think it should include my block, which it currently does not. the block from Taylor to Mason and from Turk to Eddy is as Loin as they come.
otoh, i would almost bring the North border down to O’Farrell.
also, the Tenderloin should never extend across Market Street. 6th Street is its own domain, for sure.
3 is the best but it needs to be pushed past Taylor and up to Mason. That is still TL.
Map 1
its all bad
I voted for #3 but as a resident of the Inner Sunset, I probably have no real authority here.
But since I take so many photos in this part of the city, I always am trying to figure out exactly what neighborhood I’m in.
I do like the Megaloin name but I agree, anything across Market shouldn’t count.
I’d go further east as mentioned by others. I also wouldn’t go all the way to Van Ness and would include at least a couple blocks of Post. I’d even include McAllister up to Hyde, or else I’ll have to stop calling Hastings UC Tenderloin.
Interesting, so it seems that most folks are saying to go past Taylor, but how far up? Taylor is pretty decent maybe above Ellis or so?
Also, are most people saying that the Western boundary should be Polk?
Northern border at O’Farrell? Most sites like the Yevil but it at Geary. Maybe it stretches up to Geary past Hyde going West?
How about the Southern boundary? Does that look pretty good there at Civic Center?
i agree the western boundary shouldn’t go past Polk.
The civic center is certainly its own space. It includes both the federal building and the state building on Golden Gate. I know for ease of mapping a straight line at McAllister should define the CC, but I believe the line make a few doglegs around Larkin, Turk, Polk and Eddy. I also don’t believe the TL extends past Polk, that single block between Polk and Van Ness is part of something else. Also don’t forget Little Saigon.
Oh yeah, had totally forgotten Little Saigon. That’s definitely its own thing and not to be mashed up in the general Loinery of things.
The TL definitely does NOT extend north of Geary, and hasn’t for 20 years. However my big gripe is: there is NO SUCH THING as the Tendernob. I live on Jones @ Bush St. and my grandparents lived in the neighborhood for 50 years.
trust me, “Tendernob” is just a real estate agent’s fantasy.
I disagree. There is nothing terribly Loin about Jones & Bush, yet there is nothing terrible Nob about it either. It’s definitely in that transition zone which works well to be called TenderNob. Lower Nob Hill on the other hand is a bullshit term that is indeed real estate fantasy. Hell, I’d even be open to Upper Tenderloin, or UpLoin if you will if that made people happier than using TenderNob.
[...] like Invisible Stripes, but there’s still a lot of empty storefront. Now, as Tenderblogois blogged earlier, whether you consider Sutter Street part of the Tendernob is a matter of opinion. To see more of [...]
you’ve forgotten to include the Polk Gulch in your maps, which accounts for at least part of the tendernob! this name has been around for decades, is used by various official agencies, and bugs the hell out of some of the merchants … so much that they’ve been trying to rename it Polk Village for the past couple of years.
Another interesting way to examine the borders of the TL and nearby neighborhoods would be compare areas by income, demographics and crime patterns. i’m feeling too lazy to fire up GIS software tonight but if you have the inclination it might yield some cool results.
Extend TL’s boundary to Taylor up until O’Farrell. Then bring it back to Mason and end north at Geary.
I also missed the Polk thing. Polk is its own dealio for the most part.
Ending the north side at Geary is probably the best thing. You’ll have people fighting over individual blocks here and there, but Geary is a known enough street to be a border.
I’m going to have to go with #4. Mostly because of the ‘student ghetto’ have you seen it recently? It looks like a college campus up there. Additionally, I am a firm believer in the noberloin.
a couple of comments have touched off a bit of an alarm for me and got me thinking about why i’m drawing imaginary borders the way i am.
i don’t mean to sound like a PC-obsessed SF democrat hack (i don’t vote, on principle), but is there a core of racism with how many of us are doing this? speaking for myself, i think so.
i lived in the TL, and the way i marked the boundaries over the 1 year of my residence was, frankly, the presence of black folk on the street in certain concentrations. i’m not discounting the validity of “demographics” in an exercise like this, but room does open up, and it’s present in this comment thread, for lazy, blanket assumptions to be used.
again, i’m not saying this process is *wrong* necessarily, i’m just saying it might either be racist, or a reflection of institutional racism.
something to consider…
There is nothing terribly Nob about it? How about the architecture? the proximity to the cable car line? the Cathedral? its historical designation as “The Lower Nob Hill Hotel and Residential District”?
Lower is not a “bullshit term” its a physical descriptor.
and Little Saigon is absolutely part of the TL. waves of immigration are what now, and always have, made up the TL.
welcome to SF.
and Little Saigon is absolutely part of the TL. waves of immigration are what now, and always have, made up the TL.
have you lived here long?
I don’t think the lines are based on race. The Loin is made up of a great many ethnic groups whether they be white, black, Asian, Hispanic, etc. The definitions for me more come down to it being a neighborhood of those with lower income whether they be recent immigrants or those with drug problems. It’s definitely a rough neighborhood for kids, but it’s the highest density of families in the city.
If memory serves, it was originally white, single male, laborers at the start of the 20th century, but that has obviously changed. Maybe you find the blacks in the neighborhood to be the most visible where you are (such as Turk & Taylor), but I don’t think there is one dominant race that comprises what we define as the Tenderloin based upon what I see. Look at the soup kitchen lines and you’ll see a pretty wide swath of folks including cheap, asshole tourists getting a free meal.
I agree with you in that you sound racist. That said, as tenderblogois pointed out, the Tenderloin is incredibly diverse. Also, one of the largest groups in the Tenderloin is the elderly, of many different ethnicities and races.
yeah, fair enough. i’m just speaking for myself, but the first basis that pops to mind is an image of African-American density.
i think one problem with the Loin is that SF is so sharply segregated for black people. the TL and some spots South of Mid-Market (SoMidMa?) and West Addy are the only real indications of any black presence in this city.
> I agree with you in that you sound racist.
thanks for being gracious.
> Also, one of the largest groups in the Tenderloin is the elderly, of many different ethnicities and races.
that’s true. and now someone has said it in this thread.
let me just add that in my year of residing there, i saw plenty of non-black people (not just at my apartment). the way i came to refer my neighborhood was that it was a place for “down-and-outers,” because that was the most consistent “lifestyle” i observed, across all demographics.
it has probably changed since 2005, but i wouldn’t know.
Curbed just described #4 as the AcCivTenNob Hills, but I suggest we rearrange and reduce it to Activenob.
I like this even more than Megaloin!
As has been hinted at, the TL’s borders define an area containing a quantifiable density and frequency of depraved behaviors and criminal activities. The TL’s expansion is inexorable. Eventually most of SF will actually be TL. The official name change should occur by 2030, signed into law by Gov. Chris Daly.
“Lower Nob Hill is generally bounded by Post Street to the south, California Street to the north, Hyde Street to the west, and Powell Street to the east. Lower Nob Hill was originally built as a high-end area and is historically part of Nob Hill. It is also an official historic district called the San Francisco Apartment and Hotel National Register Historic District. The successful nomination was written by architectural historian Ann Bloomfield in the 1980s.”
I vote for naming this district SOMETHING! No identity leads to low self-esteem. Low self-esteem leads to vacancies.
Nob Village? LoNo (Lower Nob)? SoNo (South of Nob)? SubNob? Sutter Village? Sutter Hill? Hitchcock District?
We shouldn’t leave it up to Real Estate agents who do not live in this district. Maybe this district needs an association?
Its time… I stuck a fork in her… she is ready… give her a name!
[...] for using descriptors for neighborhoods with otherwise unfriendly connotations. With that in mind, Tenderblog has an interesting discussion about the ability of brokers to redefine neighborhoods with clever [...]
[...] up on the fact that they’ve moved the “Downtown” border to O’Farrell when we all pretty much agree that the northern border is at least at Geary if not even [...]
Architecturally and sociologically (especially within the context of its history and evolution), Sixth Street is very much an extension of the Tenderloin. That much is fact, not opinion. Add to it what I learned while living for six years in a hotel at the corner of Sixth and Jesse, and I would have to say, nay insist, that the answer is #1.
[...] the Tenderloin, that’s Civic Center where, yes, no one really lives. Naturally this opens up the question as to whether this is really a neighborhood or just an area like Golden Gate Park and well, Union [...]